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I wanted to explore some of the world of different Christian leaders, small and big. However, I wanted to report less on those and more in their own words. These will be published, slowly, over time.
This, I trust, may open dialogue and understanding between various communities. Of course, an interview does not amount to an endorsement, but to the creation of conversation, comprehension, and compassion.
Minister Bruce McAndless-Davis is a Minister at Peninsula United Church & Curator of ThirdSpace Community Café (CafeChurch). He is responsible for Outreach, Pastoral Care & Communication.
Here we talk about his life and views, and life work.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Let’s start from the top. What was some family background? What was some personal background?
Minister Bruce McAndless-Davis: Okay, I am not sure what to tell you. I was born in Japan. I spent the first 11 years of my life there. My parents worked for the church in the Korean church in Japan. My dad was a pastor.
So, I have that in my history. I went to high school in Scarborough, Toronto. I spent most of my teen years and beyond there. I went to the University of Toronto. I went out here to do my masters here in Vancouver. I went to the Vancouver School of Theology.
My family and I ended up raising our family here. We love being on the West Coast.
Jacobsen: If you reflect on the church in earlier life in Japan, and if you reflect on the churches that you had in Scarborough and in Vancouver here, before and after the Vancouver School of Theology, what were some common facets or aspects of them? What were some differences?
McAndless-Davis: I think the common denominator in all of the churches that I have been a part of is a sense of a deep connection between people. Sometimes, that was more easily felt than others. But I feel a real sense of community between people. I, certainly, felt a part of that as a child and then a young person.
I felt like I belonged. I think that sense of belonging is really a key component of any church that I have been a part of and connected to, regardless of theological differences and different expressions of faith and traditions. It is a sense of community is, certainly, a really important thing.
The differences, I think, were more cultural than theological. In a way, it is that different churches have different personalities. Certainly, there are common denominators within the same tradition. In fact, within the same denomination, you get different church cultures depending on different factors.
The leadership of the ministry and where it came from are important parts of that. It depends on what they’re passionate about. If they are passionate about children and youth, then they will be about that. Right now, I am passionate about social justice and community engagement, particularly those who are marginalized in one way or another.
We have an emergency shelter. We connect with a community in rural El Salvador.
Jacobsen: Why El Salvador?
McAndless-Davis: That’s interesting. I think it was a personal connection with someone in the congregation to start with. People were invited to visit. So, a small group initially went from the church to visit this community.
They saw an opportunity for us to be helpful and to build a relationship. So, there was a need for that community, which was made up of displaced people from different parts of El Salvador who were displaced by the war – so they can have homes and farms to cultivate.
So, these folks came back from that trip and asked people in our church if we could help. They collected money and were able to help people in that community to buy land. That began a relationship that has lasted for more than 20 years now with different folks in the church going down.
Our whole youth group went a couple of times. There are quite a few people in the church who have been down many times. There have been others down a couple of times. That’s where that came from.
Jacobsen: If you could reflect on some of the Vancouver School of Theology experience, and training and education, what was, or what is, the dominant theological stream there? And why?
McAndless-Davis: Historically, the Vancouver School of Theology was formed when both the Anglican and the United Church colleges came together and the Presbyterian, which had a very small school in Vancouver, also joined in later on.
So, it has been primarily a place of training leaders in the United, Anglican, and Presbyterian Church. Primarily around pastoral clergy leadership, but actually, over the last 20 years, it is being more and more around social leadership.
So, people who didn’t want to become ministers necessarily, but who wanted to offer and felt called to offer leadership and other parts of the faith. Whether it is organizing the community or various things, the theological strains, of course, come, primarily, from those traditions, I’d say that there has always been a spectrum theologically at Vancouver School of Theology.
It has always tended towards the more liberal, progressive side of theology compared to other Christian traditions, certainly. But they have had different principles from different faculties and traditions. This has been a time when there was a strong feminist emphasis in that school.
It was fairly strong when I was there in the 90s. But that is still, certainly, present, but not nearly as strong now as it once was. I think the faculty represent a fairly broad ecumenical spectrum, including, now.
A member of their faculty is Jewish Rabbi. The Interfaith connections have been built that wasn’t really happening in the way when I was a student there.
Jacobsen: How does this inform church teachings in the pulpit? How does this trickle down into those who have graduated and who are leading communities at a church?
McAndless-Davis: Right, speaking for myself, being at an ecumenical school like that, it helped me appreciate my own tradition more and to learn about, and appreciate more, other Christian and some other religious traditions as well.
It helped cultivate a sense of openness and an appreciation of other traditions. I think, certainly, in my ministry – and those of the colleagues who I know; we have, often, been active in local ministerials or other organizations that bring other religious leaders together for civic society to serve their communities.
I know, for example, where we are now in South Surrey. We have built a really meaningful relationship with the Muslim community in South Surrey called the White Rock Muslim Association. It started with simply sharing some events together. Where we were trying to help members of our community learn about Islam because we saw a lot of misperception in the community, it was during a time.
Really, it was in response to the bombing in Paris. The blowback that a lot of the members of the Muslim community were experiencing as a result of it. That blossomed into us working with refugees in Syria. We have done a number of gatherings since that time.
That openness to other faith traditions and working collaboratively in community is something that I would say is part of the ethos of my training.
Jacobsen: Who is an outstanding expositor, or just teacher, to the general public of Canada about the Christian faith across denominations?
McAndless-Davis: [Laughing].
Jacobsen: Who is someone not doing that, the opposite of that?
McAndless-Davis: I think there are some wonderful and articulate spokespeople in church. I think most of them are not well-known, certainly by the general public. I think there is a healthy and, sometimes, unhealthy skepticism about high-profile religious leaders.
I am not sure who I would point to, at least in Canada, as an exemplary expositor. There are some great preachers out there. Some of them are in obscurity. Others in more high-profile and relatively larger churches.
I think one of the heroes that I have within my own tradition is not from Canada. But John Bell is one of the leaders in the Iona community out of Scotland who I really appreciate. His books, his speaking, his workshops that I have taken.
The church has probably heard of him. But the general public may not have. In terms of being critical of someone in particular, I mean, locally, there is an ultra-conservative group called Culture Guard. That is really fighting a war against inclusivity around folks, specifically SOGI 123. The provincial resource within the school system to help teachers and students create safe environments for everyone in school.
There is a lot of those folks who are fighting against that in the name of their Christian faith. I find that particularly disturbing. That they’re spreading hatred and misinformation and taking a very extreme position, calling those of us parents with trans kids who we support – one of my children is trans – them and their choices, and their journey in making a transition in terms of a gender identity, child abusers.
They refer to it as a child abuse. For anyone to do that is appalling, but to do that in the name of Jesus Christ, who I believe represented remarkable love and inclusivity in his time, is truly appalling to me.
Jacobsen: If we look at misrepresentations, whether knowingly or not, by the secular community, what are some of those misrepresentations or misunderstandings on the part of the secular community at large, or in individuals? In other words, what are some common ones?
McAndless-Davis: I think there is a fairly broad perception among folks that Christians are generally anti-gay, which, I would say, is certainly a misunderstanding. Like any religious community, like any community, period, most broad communities anyway, there is a diversity of perspectives, and so on.
Christians have a wide spectrum of social beliefs as well as theological beliefs. I think a lot of people don’t appreciate that. I think there is a lot of misperception of how literally many of us Christians take the Bible.
The Bible is not a scientific text of any kind [Laughing].
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
McAndless-Davis: So, it’s narrative descriptions of Creation and other events are important theologically and spiritually. I actually think it is interesting to see connections between those very ancient narratives and what scientists have come to understand about how the universe was formed.
I would suggest that the vast majority of Christians in Canada do not understand Genesis as descriptions of how the Earth was actually formed or how the universe and the Solar System were formed. That we have a much more nuanced understanding of the place of that literature in our faith and in our lives.
I think a lot of people don’t realize that [Laughing].
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
McAndless-Davis: I think they assume we have some weird and primitive ideas from the Bible. That we are not critical or thoughtful about how we apply those. That may be true from some Christians. It is, certainly, not true for me.
Even for those who are more conservative than I am would have a much more nuanced understanding, those would be two examples anyway.
Jacobsen: If you look at the secular conversations, the individuals who tend to be pointed out are Ken Ham, the Ark Encounter, the Discovery Institute, and individuals working to put creationism alongside evolution by natural selection in the biology science classroom.
McAndless-Davis: [Laughing] yes.
Jacobsen: Like circumnavigating the research area of it, where it trickles down through the professors, the graduate students, the undergraduate textbooks, and then into the high school textbooks, and just going straight to the school boards to put it directly into the high school textbooks, so having no reliable vetting of experts in the field, that’s typically what comes up, to what you’re saying.
In the Christian community, what are some misunderstandings or misinformation they might have about the secular community?
McAndless-Davis: That’s a good question. I think that’s a bit of a harder question in a sense because I think people inside the church and outside the church have misperceptions about their own communities and society in general.
Secular society isn’t an identifiable group of people. That we might have certain ideas about necessarily. I think there can be some real misunderstandings throughout society about the position that people who identify atheists have, for example, because in the little bit of dialogue that I have had with folks who identify as atheists.
It might go from a very passive position of just not believing in any religious doctrine to fairly militant anti-religious stand. Those have tended to get more airplay in recent years. I think the word atheist, itself, can get some misunderstanding.
It’s interesting. In The United Church, we have one minister who has identified herself as an atheist. She takes that word quite literally in saying, “A-theist.” I think she uses it in a way that is not popularly understood as atheist.
That, certainly, created all kind of misunderstanding, conflict, and consternation in our denomination. That someone is still a minister and still describes themselves as an atheist. I am speaking of Gretta Vosper, of course.
When you dig a little deeper, and examine what she means by the word “atheist,” the god that she doesn’t believe in is a god that most of us wouldn’t believe in other. I think [Laughing] there is abundant room there for misunderstanding and misinformation.
That we need to dig a little deeper and understand a little more. It is around those issues with some Christians. It is hard for them to listen to the nuances because they have a reaction. People are quick to take positions for or against rather than engage in dialogue.
Jacobsen: How long do you take to organize a service and a sermon on average?
McAndless-Davis: In a good week, I would say that I spend about 3 hours pulling together the basic service itself: the plan, the order of service, the hymns, the other elements of worship. The sermon, I can spend anywhere from 4 or 5 hours, if I am pretty tight for time, to more like 10 or 12, if I have a bit more time.
Some things require a bit more research. Sometimes, I throw out blocks of material [Laughing].
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
McAndless-Davis: I just start again. It depends on a lot of factors. I remember back when we went to school. You were supposed to spend an hour per minute sermon. I don’t know a minister who has the luxury to spend that time.
That’s unrealistic. Certainly, it is between 5 and 10 hours. It would be common.
Jacobsen: What has been the most emotionally difficult text in the Bible to teach and preach?
McAndless-Davis: “The most,” I don’t know. There’s a few. Texts that are difficult. There are several passages in the Psalms. For example, that express violence. There is a famous passage that speaks about wishing destruction on my enemies and on imagining bashing their children’s heads against rocks.
That sort of thing, I have barely, actually, preached on those passages. But I have, occasionally, dealt with them. I think people understand the difference between instructive scripture and poetic expressions that are tied to a particular time and place.
So, in terms of what is emotionally more difficult, I think I labour more over the implications of Jesus’s radical teachings. If we look honestly and seriously at many of the things that Jesus taught, the demands of what he is pointing to – the kind of radical love and self-giving that is part of his teaching – is, actually, a pretty hard sell in comfortable, middle class congregations.
In my own life, never mind [Laughing], I think that’s where I do some heavy wrestling. The trick as a preacher is to balance an honest expression of what I believe the teaching is and not coming off as judgmental and self-righteous, either.
There, certainly, are some times when I feel like the inactivity of the Christian community around important issues like poverty and environment stewardship. Those kinds of things. Those run up against the call of our faith.
We have to wrestle hard with that. I find that hard work to try and create dialogue and, hopefully, inspire people to examine themselves and seek some transformation. Both within ourselves and within our worlds.
I am flawed person, myself. I struggle with that stuff, just like anybody would. I have to keep working at what this means in my life and what is might mean in others’ lives, and what can I say that would be helpful for people to hear.
Jacobsen: What is the fundamental nature of God to you?
McAndless-Davis: For me, the fundamental nature of God is loving community. Part of my understanding within my Christian tradition of the Trinity, expressing God as both one and three. That the source of life is not homogenous and singular entirely.
There is a oneness. There is a unity in how I understand God. But also, a sense of community and diversity within that. There is a sense of relationship too. I can probably be pretty comfortable with a statement like “God is loving relationship, writ on a cosmic scale.”
So, that, for me, is a deeply relational faith. It is founded on a sense of a Creator. I think there are a lot of different words that we can and should use in reference to the ineffable, indescribable source of all being [Laughing].
The character of that being is loving and relational. It is loving in a deep sense, not superficially.
Jacobsen: Have you ever had a religious experience?
McAndless-Davis: Yes! I have [Laughing] had lots of religious experiences.
Jacobsen: What would you consider the sense in that experience? What would be the words that come to mind?
McAndless-Davis: Yes. There are different kinds. I have had religious experiences, where I am just overwhelmed with a deep sense of warmth, acceptance, of love for myself and for the human race and, indeed, the whole world.
There are times when I think I have had religious experiences when I feel like I have been called out. I feel really convicted of something that I realize I need to change in my life, and how I am. So, I have had that kind too.
Most of the religious experiences that I have found really powerful have been about presence. This sense of the presence of One who is beyond my material existence.
Jacobsen: How would you characterize a soul? How would you characterize an afterlife?
McAndless-Davis: I guess, for me, our soul is whatever part or center of us, the core of our being. I don’t really believe in a Greek dualistic sense of body and soul, as being separate. That our soul is simply the core of who we are and, therefore, transcends simply the physical.
But it is deeply embedded and connected to it. So, it is not something that can simply be separate from our physical selves. The second question was around the afterlife.
Jacobsen: That’s correct.
McAndless-Davis: It is a mystery [Laughing]. We don’t know. I think there is a lot of tradition around what we might expect. We don’t know. So, what I assert, if I am at a memorial service or in conversation with somebody, I speak of trust in the One to whom we have always been connected and with whom we will always be connected.
God, and one another, our relationship with one another is not done. What form that will take? I think there are lots of narrative and poetic expressions of that. That are or might be interesting and helpful at times, and comforting.
But, essentially, it is trusting ourselves to an unknown mystery. But my own experience of connection with the source of life has helped me to trust that that connection is not severed or come to an end when I die, when my body dies.
So, there is some way in which we continue to exist. What that looks and feels like, I really don’t know. I like to imagine a lot of things. But it is all rooted in a trust in that first source.
Jacobsen: What is your most common prayer?
McAndless-Davis: Help! [Laughing]
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
McAndless-Davis: That’s true, whether it is help for people who are suffering, for me to be more faithful, in something I find difficult, or people I am worried about like my kids or others I love, or the Earth and the amount of loss and help for us to wake up and make more fundamental changes in how we live. So, we can treasure this Earth and take better care of it.
Those are the most common ones. I’d say.
Jacobsen: Most Islamic and Christian theology, not only comes with a divine creator of some form but, comes with what is commonly termed an enemy or a source or locus of evil. How would you be defining within your own theology? What would be manifestations of this?
McAndless-Davis: I think the Old Testament term “Satan” translated well to “Adversary.” I think the tendency of some parts of my tradition to personify that in a person is less prevalent in our scriptures than even more Christians [Laughing] realize.
I think there is something helpful in ours and other traditions. If we are able to identify sources and powers of evil, and destruction, in our lives and in the world, I think it is dangerous if we project that onto someone who is completely other like a figure, a person, or a being named Satan, as a way to avoid responsibility for things wrong within ourselves.
Sometimes, that can happen. But appealing to some Eastern faith traditions, the presence even within Jungian and Christian thinking. The sense of a shadow within ourselves is important to acknowledge and be aware of. That there are impulses, as if we can understand them psychologically as well, as we evolved – as human beings afraid of something hunting us. That could hurt us.
It led to certain fearful impulses and reactions that are still deeply embedded in our DNA. But sometimes, when we act in fear or a part of our brain is activated fearfully or with anxiety, we are capable of doing terrible and destructive things.
It is a helpful notion to acknowledge that there is evil within ourselves. That there is social evil. It gets created with neglect, willful ignorance, or other motivations. Where we hurt one another, where we destroy the Earth, I think it is a tendency among some in the Christian tradition, which we sort of [Laughing] ignore or try to minimize the existence of evil.
It is not very comforting or true to my way of life. There are all kinds of forces in our societies and in our lives that are evil. It doesn’t mean that the people that are part of those are entirely evil. We need to be careful about demonizing other people.
That, in itself [Laughing], is an evil. We come to a point of giving ourselves permission for what happened in Nazi Germany and many other cases of killing others, persecuting others, and committing injustice. A lot of that still ongoing in the world now.
It is a dangerous thing to think that we are in a position to decide who is good and evil. I think it is also helpful to build a name within ourselves, within our own communities, and within our own societies. It has to be done with humility and an awareness that “I do not understand it all. I am not the arbiter of all truth. I am not in a position to unequivocally judge anyone.”
Jacobsen: You pastor or shepherd a community and a group of modern Christians in an advanced industrial economy in a very cozy part of even that country.
McAndless-Davis: [Laughing] yes.
Jacobsen: However, individuals around the world will experience what have been termed crises of faith or a crisis of faith. When you’re pastoring the community, what common crises of faith come forward? What runs through your mind in discussion with them? What have been some of the outcomes of those crises of faith?
McAndless-Davis: Yes. The two types of crises that I have encountered the most. I would say this is within myself as much as people I serve. There is an intellectual crisis of faith when there is a dissonance between things that I understand about historical or scientific things, and some teaching.
That creates an intellectual dissonance, which makes me question the faith tradition. I have certainly seen that. That is a bit different. Probably, in my own practice and work, the crisis of faith that I have seen as much or more is one that is a deeply personal and emotional crisis of faith that comes from having a major tragedy strike our lives, e.g., a loss of a child, a loved one.
That really upsets our world in all kinds of ways. I think people who up to that point have a sense that somehow God controlled or directed all the events of their lives, mostly for good [Laughing] or mostly in ways that were positive. It can create a real crisis for them.
I think for the vast majority of people. There is a sense of the benevolence and the omnipotence of God and a belief in a God who is active, an interventionist God. That is going to mess with their experience when they hit a major crisis, a death, an injustice – lots of things.
I think in both of those types of crises. My first response is to simply be present with people and not try to talk people out of how they’re feeling or what they’re experiencing, or the loss, but to try and reassure people that if you feel angry with God then it is okay.
If you’re upset and if you feel betrayed, that is okay. It is okay to express that. It can be instructive. So really, it is to listen, first of all. That is my goal and to do that in a way that gives people permission to express an experience that they’re going through, and to create space for dialogue and reflection and, hopefully, some understanding of themselves and their faith.
One that is deeper than the one that they might have had before. I need to respect where people are. Sometimes, they have come to a different perspective than they have had before. If that means that they feel the need to detach from the faith community, I would be sad about that.
I would tell them so and respect that. I would try to keep the door open for a continuing relationship and, at least, an openness to dialogue in the future.
Jacobsen: Many denominations of Christian faith harbour a literal or a metaphorical, or both, conceptualization of a broken world. A world where children die early horrible deaths, poverty is rampant in many parts of the world, male and female partners abuse one another physically, verbally, sexually, drug abuse can be rampant, unjust wars can happen, unfairness can even happen at school and job level.
People can be left indebted. Their homes can be foreclosed. They can feel a sense of despair that to those in more comfortable countries or situations simply may not be able to fathom immediately, given the immediacy of that despair and dislocation. It can destroy lives, if not senses of self, and entire communities.
How does this conceptualization of a broken world in a Christian context help you live out your faith in some of the contexts where you want to live in community while also providing for the surrounding community in terms of helping those, whether by choice or by their chances in life, are less fortunate in life?
McAndless-Davis: It is interesting the way you talked about having a better metaphorical or literal idea. I think the world is both literally and metaphorically [Laughing] broken. I think that’s just true of our experience. People know that.
We experience this in a whole variety of ways. Even in relatively comfortable communities like the one I serve, there are many people living with very real illness or mental illness, chronic pain, and, in some cases, struggles with their housing and that sort of thing.
Relatively speaking, it is the experience of people. I think the understanding of the world as broken I as a two-edged thing. First of all, I think it is true to our experience. I think it is a way of naming people’s experience.
We are told that we have a generation of children and young people fearing environmental destruction in the same way that I did or my generation did with nuclear destruction in the 80s. It is easy for that to create despair and depression.
Sometimes, it is hard to find hope when faced with that. You want to help each other out. The metaphor of a broken world invites the question, “How can the world be mended?” How can it be restored? How can our lives be restored?
The teaching of my faith, at least, needs to happen at a personal, social, and collective level. We need to respond in ways that we are able, out of who we are and what our gifts & abilities are. One of my favourite quotes is by an old preacher named Howard Thurman.
He said, “Don’t ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive.”
I believe the things that give us joy, the things that we’re most passionate about, are the things that we are called to do in the world. So, part of my rule as a pastor is to encourage people not just to do something that they think is important out of a sense of duty of obligation, but something that gives them joy and reflects on their own gifts, talents, and passions.
Because I think that is the healthiest way for us to live in hope in a broken world. That we, or I, have a contribution to make or some contributions to make to my community and to the wider world. Those are ways to respond to the brokenness of the world, but also not to create more brokenness in myself.
That I can respond to the need for wholeness in the world by creating wholeness in myself as well. There needs to be a harmony and a connection there. Certainly, I have affinities with Buddhist teaching around that. I think that is really consistent with the teachings of Jesus as well.
Jacobsen: When you’re done preparing a sermon or a service for the week, what is a regular playing out of that sermon or that service for that Sunday?
McAndless-Davis: For us, we have two places that we do services on a Sunday morning. One is the church building. The other is a café. It is a community café out of a storefront space. We do a service there. In some ways, it has some basic elements that are the same as what happens in the church building.
It has a pretty different feel to it. It is more casual and interactive, and more intimate. In terms of the more traditional service, it is about an hour and ten minutes or so with a fair bit of music. That would probably include or might include a hymn that was written before the 20th century anyway – 17th, 18th, 19th centuries.
It might also include one or two more contemporary hymns written in the last 20 years. We have a piano and an organ. We have a pianist and an organist. We follow a liturgy that is fairly classical of prayers, songs, and readings, a sermon.
We celebrate the sacraments, communion, once a month. It has a basic structure that they know what to expect and are used to it. Folks in the church, those who haven’t grown up with it or experienced that would think it is pretty unusual.
Particularly, the format of one minister doing all the talking in terms of the prayers in the sermon. I think the appeal is weakening in a postmodern society, to say the least [Laughing]. People are more interested and interactive and engaged in other things. That is something that we are trying to do, where there is no sermon.
There is a story that is shared for children and the adults there. We find different ways to reflect on that story in groups. It could be discussing questions around the café tables in a small group or a separate group working on a craft and talking about the story, and what it means to us.
It is trying to share some of those key things with us. So, I’d say we are experimenting with some different ways of doing that with traditional forms of worship.
Jacobsen: What would you consider the best means or a set of really good means by which to bridge the gap between the secular and the religious communities in Canada?
McAndless-Davis: I think one of the best ways that I’ve experienced that is to work and to play together. I consider it really important. I have lots of friends that are not connected to the church at all. I play hockey recreationally.
I am involved in singing in a community choir. I do other things recreationally that connect me outside of my own faith tradition. I think those are really, by living in community, meaningful and worthwhile.
It means stepping outside of our comfort zones for some people. Their normal circles of connection and influence. I think one of the really important aspects of that is creating or finding and forming alliances with people that care about the same things.
I think there’s lots of people in our community who don’t subscribe to any faith that care about many of the same things that I do, whether environmental destruction or making safer communities, being inclusive of LGBT folks, and any number of issues, for making connections and working together, whether political, social, or organizational.
I think those are all good ways for us to get to know one another and build real, meaningful relationships that transcend stereotypes and misconceptions to share and learn with each other rather than have a set of beliefs and assumptions [Laughing]…
Jacobsen: …[Laughing]…
McAndless-Davis: …about each other. That may not be accurate.
Jacobsen: Any final feelings or thoughts in conclusion based on the conversation today?
McAndless-Davis: I think there are a lot of motivations that play in our world. I think lots of folks from different religious or no religious traditions are motivated by a desire for good, healthy meaningful communities.
I think it’s on the basis on all of us desiring that and, hopefully, opening ourselves to work together, learn from one another, and to appreciate differences, not just trying to minimize them – and appreciate the unique gifts that others bring. That’s a good thing for all of us.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Minister Bruce.
McAndless-Davis: Sure, glad to talk with you.
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Scott Douglas Jacobsen is the Founder of In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal and In-Sight Publishing. He authored/co-authored some e-books, free or low-cost. If you want to contact Scott: Scott.D.Jacobsen@Gmail.com.
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